Curse

Jam Jar · Aug 29, 2007, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Well, I just started a W/N and really wanted to use axes. But after hearing about the minimum, my friend trying to convince me that swords > axes, and seeing guides that use hammers and swords, I've sort of lost confidence. Could someone tell me the pluses and minuses of using axe for W/N? TY

Scarlet Waffle · Aug 29, 2007, 05:04 AM // 05:04

I am also curious on this =X

Smithereens · Aug 29, 2007, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Here's my take based on what I've seen from many, many threads in this particular section. If I got anything wrong, gave unsound advice, please feel free to correct me.

Hammers are more of a PVP thing I think, I haven't seen many warriors I play with use hammers (I play PvE almost exclusively

). You get massive damage and most importantly, Knockdowns. It's easy to see why knockdowns are so important, it can be used as the opening for a massive spike, or to hinder one's ability to kite out of a sticky situation. But I don't see too many situations where you'll need this in a PvE situation.

Swords. I wouldn't doubt that part of the fascination/liking of swords comes from the whole fantasy Knight in Shining Armour type thing. (I mean, how many Knights did you see in those movies wielding an axe :P) But beyond that, one of the things about swords might be that it's got a very constant damage output. So, while you may not do uber damage with every hit, you're almost guarenteed to get decent damage from each swing. From the PVP aspect, based on what I've seen here, it's got the ability to pressure the enemy. Crippling Slash both cripples and causes bleeding on an enemy - preventing kiting and allowing you to use Gash (a conditional deep wound applying skill). I've also heard that Dragon Slash is great for applying massive damage to all sorts of things, and as an added bonus, you get an adrenaline return. Lastly, one very, very powerful skill - Final Thrust. You deal a certain amount of damage (At swordsmanship 12, you do +32, at 16, you do +43), but if your target is under 50% health, you do 2x that amount - Massive damage with just one single attack, an effective end to a spike.

Now, the Axe. One thing about it is that it's got very high max damage. Higher than the sword at least. But, at the same time, it's got a much lower min damage. When fighting certain mobs in PvE, I find that one hit, I'll get damages of 50+, and then next thing you know you're hitting for less than 30. It's very random. But when you get a critical hit, it's very deadly. Now the PvP aspect. I should have stated this before, but it seems as if the Deep Wound condition is extremely important in executing a spike, as if effectively takes off 1/5 hitpoints from the enemy while reducing it's healing capacity. There is only one sword skill (I know of, I might be wrong) that inflicts this condition - Gash, and to do so, the target must be bleeding. However, there are multiple Axe skills that cause Deep Wound without any requirement. Dismember and Eviscerate are two examples, the latter being highly favoured. From there, you can inflict a few other conditions with the Axe. One very common spike sequence I see mentioned here many times is Eviscerate + Executioner's Strike: (At Axe mastery 12 )Deep Wound + 25dmg + 34dmg.

From my own perspective, I switched from using a sword to an axe. I found the switch very easy to make, and now I barely use any of the swords I had purchased before. The thing that bothered me the most about using the sword was that I wasn't able to inflict many conditions with it, because some foes have immunity to bleeding, one of the sword's core abilties. With the Axe, not only do I get to see bigger numbers fly up after a swing, I also get to inflict Deep Wound (Useful in both PvE and PvP) any time I want, regardless of whether they are fleshy or not.

So basically:

The Pros of using an Axe -
1. You get to use an off-hand.
2. You get a higher max damage output.
3. You gain the ability to deal out Deep Wounds unconditionally.
4. You get skills that can deal damage to multiple foes (fairly useful in PvE...Swords tend to be used to single out targets I think)
5. Eviscerate! Although it does get somewhat hard to use in PvE (many mobs die before you can accumulate the adrenaline required to use it)

The Cons -
1. You have a low min damage output.
2. To be honest, I can't quite think of anymore.

But what it all boils down to is personal preference: all three weapons all have their own niches, their own specialties; but will probably perform decently in many situations. (Not to mention very nice skins on all three.) My $.02.

nem coke · Aug 30, 2007, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Axes > everything else together just because Eviscerate is linked to Axe Mastery

, on the serious note... for PvE I'd rather go with sword because you can use Riposte and Deadly Riposte for both - nice DPS and nice defense... for PvP - I highly recommend axe.

Dr Strangelove · Aug 30, 2007, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Er... a bit of bad information in this thread

-Ripostes are terrible. Never, ever, ever use them unless you're solo farming.

- Axes have slightly higher base DPS than swords

-Dragon slash rocks faces if you use a sword. Attack skill spammage is win.

-Axes have plenty of builds around, too. Triple chop, cyclone axe, eviscerate, and dismember are all full of win for PvE. (Not all on the same bar, obviously)

-Hammer have plenty of PvE use. One fun idea is to put whirlwind attack, FGJ, enraging charge and earth shaker on one bar. Perma-AoE knockdown.

-Don't be too fixated on the W/N thing. The only skill I can think of that's useful from /N is plague touch. Most of your skills should be warrior skills.

YunSooJin · Aug 30, 2007, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Axes are fine. If you bring enraging charge + FGJ! then you can easy go into a

Eviscerate->executioner's->agonizing->etcetcetc

Depends on what you feel like playing, really.

A Leprechaun · Aug 30, 2007, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Hammer are amazing used as KD shutdown but they can also pump out awesome DPS.

Enraged Smash
Flail
Enduring Harmony
"For Great Justice!"
Watch yourself
"Fear Me!"
Lion's Comfort
Counter blow

The last 4 skills are not used and can be subbed out for any 4 - 5 adrenaline skills.
With "For Great Justice!" up (only 5 seconds downtime with Enduring harmony) you can spam Enraged smash under IAS every hit, thus every single one of your attacks (pretty much) has a nice + 40 damage added to it, unlike the Dragon Slash version if Enraged smash misses, no big deal its only 2 adrenaline to charge anyway.

I think all the weapons are about equal in PvE, with hammer mabye trailing a little due to the fatc you cannot use a shield.

In PvE it doesnt matter what weapon you use, and to a lesser extent it doesnt even matter what build you use, Guild wars is a game, to have fun with, dont let other people make you change you play style, build or weapon just becaue they are " sub-par". In PvE it doesnt matter anyway.

~A Leprechaun~

nem coke · Aug 30, 2007, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

-Ripostes are terrible. Never, ever, ever use them unless you're solo farming.

- Axes have slightly higher base DPS than swords

-Axes have plenty of builds around, too. Triple chop, cyclone axe, eviscerate, and dismember are all full of win for PvE. (Not all on the same bar, obviously)

-Don't be too fixated on the W/N thing. The only skill I can think of that's useful from /N is plague touch. Most of your skills should be warrior skills.

-Ripostes are actually good, if you use them properly that is... take FGJ and have Riposte recharging every 2 hits and Deadly Riposte every 10s, together they are equal to ~15% - 100% chance to block depending on how many enemies you fight. You can add Shield stance to have even higher block chance (+you can use riposte with it since it's not a stance). Also I partly agree with you, Ripostes are awful sometimes. In areas where there isn't a lot of melee/ there is no melee obviously. You can also pair Riposte with Auspicious Parry, that's a nice combo once you get used to it.

-Axes don't have higher DPS than sword. No one would use swords otherwise/ there wouldn't be point in using swords at all since their crit is lower than axes'.

-Triple Chop and Cyclone Axe are terrible skills unless you're solo farming, or you have a Splinter Weapon/Brutal Weapon/ Weapon of Fury/ Order of Vampire or other stuff like that on you.

-As for W/N thing, I agree with you. Plague Touch is waste of skill slot in a lot of areas in PvE.

Stormlord Alex · Aug 30, 2007, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by nem coke

-Ripostes are actually good, if you use them properly that is... take FGJ and have Riposte recharging every 2 hits and Deadly Riposte every 10s, together they are equal to ~15% - 100% chance to block depending on how many enemies you fight. You can add Shield stance to have even higher block chance (+you can use riposte with it since it's not a stance). Also I partly agree with you, Ripostes are awful sometimes. In areas where there isn't a lot of melee/ there is no melee obviously. You can also pair Riposte with Auspicious Parry, that's a nice combo once you get used to it.

General PvE, Ripostes are bad. They only help YOU, and the melee AI actually has to be on you.
Watch yourself! is better by far.

Quote:

-Axes don't have higher DPS than sword. No one would use swords otherwise/ there wouldn't be point in using swords at all since their crit is lower than axes'.

At 11 spec and up, the base DPS of an Axe is higher than that of a Sword.
When you factor in skills, Swords come out on top because of Dragon Slash; without skills Axes still hit harder.

nem coke · Aug 30, 2007, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

General PvE, Ripostes are bad. They only help YOU, and the melee AI actually has to be on you.

I don't see your point here...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

At 11 spec and up, the base DPS of an Axe is higher than that of a Sword.
When you factor in skills, Swords come out on top because of Dragon Slash; without skills Axes still hit harder.

11 spec and up yes, but why would a tank have so much in weapon attribute? O_o
Tanks' job IS NOT to kill stuff, he has to take the damage. And when you mentioned D-slash, why not combine it with Riposte and get higher block rate/ higher DPS? I know someone will say ''OMG and go without Sever Artery and Gash?'' <- for that answer read the recent sentence.

Also you people might be right and I assumed that he wanted a tank W/N , if he doesn't want a pure tank, yes I agree, in that case Ripostes are bad.

Stormlord Alex · Aug 30, 2007, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Hmm, it doesn't seem like the OP is asking for a tank at all.

... If he were I'd tell him that /N is the wrong secondary ^_^

Jam Jar · Aug 30, 2007, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Well actually I'm looking for spikes and I heard that axes were good for burst damage.

Dr Strangelove · Aug 30, 2007, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by nem coke

11 spec and up yes, but why would a tank have so much in weapon attribute? O_o
Tanks' job IS NOT to kill stuff, he has to take the damage.

No. Fail. Bad wammo, no biscuit. Every warrior, except the rare farming build should have 12 in weapon mastery. Warriors have the best DPS in the game. Your job as a warrior is to tear the face off everything you can touch.

At any rate, aggro doesn't really hold well enough anymore for tank + nuke strategies, unless you're slowly and painfully cornerblocking every single mob.

EDIT: Jam Jar - Axes are the best for spikes, thanks to eviscerate/executioner's/agonizing. However, quick spikes don't matter much in PvE since you're not competing against effective enemy monks with set reaction times. In PvE, sustained DPS and AoE damage is where it's at.

nem coke · Aug 30, 2007, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

No. Fail. Bad wammo, no biscuit. Every warrior, except the rare farming build should have 12 in weapon mastery. Warriors have the best DPS in the game. Your job as a warrior is to tear the face off everything you can touch.

Sigh... Ensign explained the difference between PvE and PvP warrior pretty much, you should've read it.

Take Obsidian Tank for example and please don't tell me that build is retarded because it doesn't meet weapon requirement or something. That's the most popular tank build and one of the rare that really work.

The tank builds for warriors in The Deep also use Riposte/s , but they also don't use weapon attributes.

As for warrior's job ''to tear face off of everything you can touch'' :

1) It's warrior's job in PvP not in PvE, one of the reasons is that nukers do a lot more dmg to mindless mobs that fail to get out of AoE.
2) You fail at trying to sound cool

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

However, quick spikes don't matter much in PvE since you're not competing against effective enemy monks with set reaction times.

It's a fact that NPCs have better reflexes than people, but it's only that they are worse at micro managing that makes them bad. Also I'd like to see you spiking a lvl 20+ boss.

Stormlord Alex · Aug 30, 2007, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by nem coke

1) It's warrior's job in PvP not in PvE, one of the reasons is that nukers do a lot more dmg to mindless mobs that fail to get out of AoE.

Actually, for.... 99.9% of PvE, a warrior is better off owning face then tanking.
Outside of the Deep, Urgoz (are warriors used there?), DoA, and possibly UW/FoW, tanking warriors are unnecerssary and merely slow stuff down.
I shan't deny that Eles are better damage dealers, but warriors can deal damage and should for the most of PvE.

nem coke · Aug 30, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

Actually, for.... 99.9% of PvE, a warrior is better off owning face then tanking.
Outside of the Deep, Urgoz (are warriors used there?), DoA, and possibly UW/FoW, tanking warriors are unnecerssary and merely slow stuff down.
I shan't deny that Eles are better damage dealers, but warriors can deal damage and should for the most of PvE.

I agree with you, in Urgoz's they aren't used, UW I personally thing they should be pure tanks (due to terrorweb dryders and aatxes), in FoW you can go with dmg, just bring one defensive skill or something. But I did missunderstand the OP or mixed with another thread I posted in so I started with tank builds. But tbh it's the only ''high end'' PvE where warriors are actually used as tanks.

nebuchanezzar · Aug 30, 2007, 05:12 PM // 17:12

I've been away from GW for quite some time(since Nightfall pretty much) but am mildly surprised to see this question still coming up.

First off, what type of GW are you playing? PvP, PvE, casual, semi-serious, or competitive? Those answers will decide moreso which weapon you will use.

The "better" argument is mostly opinion/preference based. Most of what has already been said alludes to that. For pure DPS Hammer > Ax >Sword. To compare just constant stand and hit DPS is not very effective though is it..you must compare the effects that the weapons line specializes in.
Hammers hit hardest soooooo, they are given a slower attack speed(1.77sec/swing afaik) to "balance" it vs the Sword and Ax. Its skills tend to require equal or more Adrenaline which slows down Hammers Adren build-up. It has Knockdowns in the weapon attribute. That fact alone is the main use for Hammers and limits it mostly to PvP types of play(or used too...now that the AoE hammer swing is no longer easily interrupted I'm sure a farming Hammer Wa/Mo build is coming or in use also) where the disabling affect is most sought.
Axes have about average damage compared to swords. Range of 6-28 avgs to 16. They have the same attack speed as swords(1.33 sec/swing afaik). The attribute line is more heavily Adrenaline based(imo) than the other lines allowing you to divert your Energy to other needs besides damage. The reason Axes can deliver higher avg dps than swords is the critical hits effect on the equation. Criticals always deliver max damage and the Ax has 6 more than the sword. All effects like 20% customized, 15>50 15% etc. are then added in which really pushes it up. Axes are the only weapon with a direct Deep Wound. Both Hammers and Swords require a condition to do this(KD/Bleeding respectively). Eviscerate not only applies a DeepWound but adds damage to the attack making it perhaps, arguably, the most powerful attack elite a warrior can run. Eviserate -> Executions Strike has long been a staple in GvG and HA warriors(or at least was...remember I'm a little rusty here atm). As your weapon attributes climb your chances for criticals also climb which helps Axes base DPS outclass Swords as many run 14 and some still max it at 16.
Swords are what I consider the "base" weapon. Being the atypical hero of phantasy weapon it is the most commonly chosen and the other two weapons were balanced compared to it(total opinion on my part no confirmation by devs fwiw). It has average attack speed identical to the Ax(1.33sec/swing afaik) and the average damage is 16.5 per hit which would seem to give it a better DPS than Axes at first considering identical attack speeds. As explained above though the damage of Crits is based on max damage, not average, and the sword puts 22 vs Axes 26 and vs Hammers 35. The sword has many conditions available and for quite a while was the only weapon capable of causing Bleeding(now Axes have a condition skill to cause Bleeding). It also has skills that Cripple which are not conditional unlike Axes which predicate Deep Wound to apply Weakness or Cripple. These skills have tended to push swords to the status of condition(pressure) usage in PvP where condition overload is sought. Some of the newer skills(Dragon Slash for example) have been added to give some more pure damage output but swords still tend to favor conditions(imo) which Assassins do better(or did anyways).
Which you choose to use should depend on what your trying to accomplish.
My advice is to play them all. I love playing a hammer warrior but usually play Ax. I rarely play swords unless someone wants me to for some reason or as part of a team build. Sword warriors synergize with Hammer and Ax somewhat as you wont be duplicating skills when you spike or attack. Evis > Exe and Any attack > Final Thrust is massive damage when they all hit in less than 2 seconds and Final hits below the 50% mark.
The general consensus of most PvP players is Ax > Hammer > Sword. The slow swing time of hammers really hurts them as Necro hexes that slow attack speed really really hurts a hammer warriors dps and adren gain moreso than Ax/Sword. That perhaps is what keeps them less common as in the end...Hammers have the best DPS of all.

None of this takes into account the Armor advantage of a Shield which you obviously give up for using a hammer. That is why imo hammer is less used in PvE.

As far as warriors in PvE are only to tank....I played a pure tank back before the AoE nerf. The pure tank doesn't exist anymore except in DOA running ObFlesh. With all the changes there is just no way to keep a ball of enemies focused on you anymore(yes corner blocking, spirit blocking, blah blah I know but compared to pre-AoE nerf.....that's stop gap attempts that slow down the PvE game). With that said, even a PvE tank should run some damage and please run 12 for your weapon attribute. Until you have some experience with your warrior, I would recommend to ignore your secondary for the time being. With your limited Energy pool and even more limited Energy regeneration it's quite hard to manage anything other than 5 Energy non-spamming skills(not taking into account a Zealous mod anyways).
In the end...none is truely better in every situation just by the math. The desired effect is more important. Axes = Spike DPS w/Deep Wound, Sword = Condition/Degen pressure with some spike assistance, Hammer = KD and KD/Spikes.
Remember, it's a game(unless your the truely competitive type lol) so GL&HF
/end rant

Jam Jar · Aug 31, 2007, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Thanks, my friend advised me to only use Plaque Touch and ignore a lot of the other spells since they take too much energy >_>.

nem coke · Aug 31, 2007, 12:32 AM // 00:32

If you have NF I highly recommend you to go W/Mo instead of W/N... you can have cheaper condition removal (Mending Touch) and and a bunch of nice hex removals. But tbh, just take what you feel comfortable with, that's the best thing you can do atm, it also helps you to get used to warrior.

Yukito Kunisaki · Aug 31, 2007, 05:52 AM // 05:52

W/N has a lot of synergies with a Warrior's offensive capabilities.

It can deny energy using curses.
It can pierce armor using curses [take your pick, Barbs vs. Weaken Armor]
You've got awesome condition removal in well... curses [plague touch don't need it but it's there]
Blood Magic gives you a monster hp management for tanking [Demonic Flesh ftw] Stealing HP over time with Life Siphon is fine if you're not using energy on other skills
And it's the ultimate in defense cracking. You can eat enchantments for lunch and shut off blocking with Rigor Mortis.

Any spell that can assist you in outright killing is in the Necromancer's magic lineup.

Healing yourself though, you're better off with Healing Sig or Lion's Comfort.

But if you can get through to your foe, W/N Executioner is my preference for my playstyle, you might like it too.